One thing I seriously despise in housing talk is the term ‘mum and dad’ investors. Like what the actual fuck does that even mean, and how and why is it relevant to the conversation? Everyone from the media to property stakeholders and politicians alike have an obsession with using this adjective, this seemingly innocent subset of landlords/property investors. By using such an emotive term we’re supposed to empathise with them or view them in a different light, that instead of a shady lurky murky villainous investor character that no one personally knows being to blame, they are the good ones because they are parents, they are someone’s ‘mum and dad?’ Well, generally speaking the vast majority of adults are or do become parents in their lifetime. And it’s not the only thing that defines them. So why does having the title of mum or dad preclude one from being a dick head investor? Heck they may even do other nefarious activities. I know why it’s used and it’s quite clever. But I’m not fooled; it is bullshit marketing. It reminds me of the whole shitty charade that rape victims go through via courts, where if the rapist is known or comes from a ‘good family’ or does well in sports/academia etc they’re usually let off the hook. Those things shouldn’t excuse rape behaviour anymore than the fact that someone who happens to be a mum or dad should be excused from knowingly and actively participating in property speculation/being bad landlords. Let’s drop the mum and dad investor term and call a spade a spade. Only then when we take off the rose tinted glasses can we look at the cold hard facts that the housing divide is a fat hot mess and do meaningful stuff about it instead of cry fake tears. Mum and dad’s everywhere might even just have to go ‘invest’ elsewhere. Can you imagine?!
Also, even if you are really lovely extremely hardworking parents who are super nice landlords... how is that a tax break category?
We have this generational issue in our family. We do have family members who have worked super hard all their lives in blue collar jobs, were able to invest in a second home, and now have lovely homes to live in and will be safe for retirement. They take any criticism of the system so personally, and don't seem to understand that the point is that their journey is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE for young people these days. Can you imagine? A young couple today with one blue-collar job and a stay-at-home parent buying TWO houses?!
It's also just so bizarre to me that people bust their asses at work and pay tax on their salaries, you pay super high tax on any interest on your savings which are decreasing in value with inflation, no one dares to talk about taxing your family home (except for rates which increase with the ridiculous price inflation), but the ultimate inviolate property right that government shalt not touch is vested in second and subsequent homes?
As a friend said to me - can they show an itemised list of what they did to the property to make it worth the $60k gain on it worth it when they did no repairs or renovations? Are they charging themselves out for inspections at $15k an hour or something?
Wow, How bloody refreshing! this is completely on the money Em!! Thank you.
I’ve been furiously correcting and rebuking all the moronic, selfish, panic ridden property investors for the last day or so, saying basically everything you’ve said! I really feel for the persons who moderate stuff chat! lol!
Anyhoo, the thing that really gets me is the deep-seated selfishness that comes across. We all know there’s a housing crisis and that it could potentially ruin our social fabric for generations to come...but property investors are belligerent. They’re slagging off the govt and blaming the crisis on a lack of supply - fully Jacinda‘a fault - the theme today was, “it’s not our fault, we’re not rich, we’ve worked hard for what we got, and we deserve to get a tax break”. there’s absolutely no thought for the crisis or the impact on good ordinary folk. The property investors in NZ have a seriously f*ckd sense of entitlement...probably from years of having the system go completely their way.
I truly believe the rent increases will be milder than is being touted, because like any over-priced commodity, if they raise rents too high, people will move on and there’ll be no one to take their place. Rent freezes would be easier though.
I 100% check my own privilege as being a homeowner but we couldn’t afford our house now, not even close, and the whole multiple houses/investing leaves such a horrid feeling. Thank you for your openness and eloquence as ever Emily x
This post perfectly summarises the madness of our current thinking around housing in this country. I hear more and more stories about the kind of profits people are making on rental properties and the truly enormous amounts of money they are allowed to borrow to buy more of them, and it makes me feel sick. Rich getting richer. This kind of greed makes me feel truly sad for our country ☹
Spot on. I'm a salary earner and I pay tax on every single $ I earn. I also can't offset any of the expenses involved in going to work against my income tax. So why do these people think they should get untaxed earnings, and offset the interest they pay on the money they borrowed to buy the additional properties on their income tax? We all work hard. I'm pissed about all the unpaid tax in this country and sick of subsidising the people who don't contribute their fair share, who will all no doubt be better off than I am. A year ago I bought some shares in A2 Milk. So cry me a bloody river.
While I agree that property investors should pay tax on profits and shouldn't be able to claim a tax rebate for interest costs I do think it's pretty harsh to paint all people who have rental properties as evil. Yes middle aged to older people have had it easier getting into homes than today's young people but are they to blame for the relative advantages times they were living in? Every period has it's challenges. Also many people who are property investors are just trying to set themselves up for retirement because the pension really isn't enough to live on, and KiwiSaver may also not be enough. Is that really such a bad motivation?
Owning a rental doesn't mean all landlords are out to shaft their tenants. Some really value their tenants and wouldn't want their tenants to live in situations they themselves wouldn't live in. I guess those landlords don't make headlines though. And yes it would be great if everyone could own their own home but you do need some rentals in the market. Also most rents are dictated by the market (which is high). If market rents come down due to these measures (I'm not sure they will) then landlords will have to lower their rents.
Hi Jacqui- I definitely don’t think people who have rental properties are evil. I don’t think anyone is evil (though tbf some investor comments this week have tested my beliefs there). I’ve had heaps of those landlords you’ve talked about contacting me saying they wholeheartedly support the changes and don’t view themselves as a business so don’t believe they should have a tax exemption. They recognise how incredibly lucky they are. I agree we need rentals and not everyone is interested in buying. But as I’ve written before rentals used to be long-term, safe, stable and reasonably priced. That is no longer the case. Therefore everyone wants to buy - so they can have a peaceful future without constant rent increases, landlords doing invasive, violating inspections all the time, being able to put their kids art on the wall or measure their height on the wall, fix problems as they come up rather than waiting months for them to be fixed. It’s different now. When housing becomes a business, people forget the people who are being housed are human beings. Rents don’t have to be dictated by the market since landlords set the rent. I don’t think these measures will address rent at all. It’s up to landlords to do that.
Yeah I have no doubt there are bad eggs out there who are only interested in making as much money as possible. I personally believe/hope that a lot of investors can strike a balance between providing a home at a fair price and also meeting their savings goals (maybe less than if they were sharks though). And yes you are right the rent is up to the landlord. I was more meaning rents tend to follow the market but of course landlords can choose to or not.
I agree with you in the sense that it’s basic human nature to take advantage of opportunities- and yes that’s been the case with people investing in properties to future proof themselves for retirement. I totally get that. The cost of living for just the basics is horrendous. But just because that’s how it’s been in the past doesn’t mean we should continue to pretend it’s not hurting so many people. So many people would prefer to buy than rent. The only reason the rental market is in high demand is because people can’t keep up with escalating deposit requirements. The goal posts move too quickly. I do believe that people should invest to help future proof for retirement or sickness or whatever unforeseen life challenges, but it’s the WHAT that is being invested in that is important. We need to encourage investment in ethical activities that improve local and global outcomes. And discourage house flipping. Property investment is just robbing Peter to pay Paul. It’s not sustainable, and it’s really expensive to have such a huge wealth discrepancy.
I definitely agree re house flipping especially if there is no "fairness" in it. Long-term landlords (like my parents) who are mainly trying to support themselves in retirement I don't have a problem with (as long as they treat tenants with respect).
One thing I seriously despise in housing talk is the term ‘mum and dad’ investors. Like what the actual fuck does that even mean, and how and why is it relevant to the conversation? Everyone from the media to property stakeholders and politicians alike have an obsession with using this adjective, this seemingly innocent subset of landlords/property investors. By using such an emotive term we’re supposed to empathise with them or view them in a different light, that instead of a shady lurky murky villainous investor character that no one personally knows being to blame, they are the good ones because they are parents, they are someone’s ‘mum and dad?’ Well, generally speaking the vast majority of adults are or do become parents in their lifetime. And it’s not the only thing that defines them. So why does having the title of mum or dad preclude one from being a dick head investor? Heck they may even do other nefarious activities. I know why it’s used and it’s quite clever. But I’m not fooled; it is bullshit marketing. It reminds me of the whole shitty charade that rape victims go through via courts, where if the rapist is known or comes from a ‘good family’ or does well in sports/academia etc they’re usually let off the hook. Those things shouldn’t excuse rape behaviour anymore than the fact that someone who happens to be a mum or dad should be excused from knowingly and actively participating in property speculation/being bad landlords. Let’s drop the mum and dad investor term and call a spade a spade. Only then when we take off the rose tinted glasses can we look at the cold hard facts that the housing divide is a fat hot mess and do meaningful stuff about it instead of cry fake tears. Mum and dad’s everywhere might even just have to go ‘invest’ elsewhere. Can you imagine?!
I am so with you, so much. Weird how there isn’t ‘mum and dad’ renters 🤔🤔
Also, even if you are really lovely extremely hardworking parents who are super nice landlords... how is that a tax break category?
We have this generational issue in our family. We do have family members who have worked super hard all their lives in blue collar jobs, were able to invest in a second home, and now have lovely homes to live in and will be safe for retirement. They take any criticism of the system so personally, and don't seem to understand that the point is that their journey is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE for young people these days. Can you imagine? A young couple today with one blue-collar job and a stay-at-home parent buying TWO houses?!
It's also just so bizarre to me that people bust their asses at work and pay tax on their salaries, you pay super high tax on any interest on your savings which are decreasing in value with inflation, no one dares to talk about taxing your family home (except for rates which increase with the ridiculous price inflation), but the ultimate inviolate property right that government shalt not touch is vested in second and subsequent homes?
As a friend said to me - can they show an itemised list of what they did to the property to make it worth the $60k gain on it worth it when they did no repairs or renovations? Are they charging themselves out for inspections at $15k an hour or something?
Totally agree. Media coverage driving me crazy with comments from all the self-entitled pricks.
It is infuriating right?
Wow, How bloody refreshing! this is completely on the money Em!! Thank you.
I’ve been furiously correcting and rebuking all the moronic, selfish, panic ridden property investors for the last day or so, saying basically everything you’ve said! I really feel for the persons who moderate stuff chat! lol!
Anyhoo, the thing that really gets me is the deep-seated selfishness that comes across. We all know there’s a housing crisis and that it could potentially ruin our social fabric for generations to come...but property investors are belligerent. They’re slagging off the govt and blaming the crisis on a lack of supply - fully Jacinda‘a fault - the theme today was, “it’s not our fault, we’re not rich, we’ve worked hard for what we got, and we deserve to get a tax break”. there’s absolutely no thought for the crisis or the impact on good ordinary folk. The property investors in NZ have a seriously f*ckd sense of entitlement...probably from years of having the system go completely their way.
I truly believe the rent increases will be milder than is being touted, because like any over-priced commodity, if they raise rents too high, people will move on and there’ll be no one to take their place. Rent freezes would be easier though.
Absolutely agree!
Yes. You have hit the roofing nails right on their heads!
Best email title I’ve seen for a while!
I 100% check my own privilege as being a homeowner but we couldn’t afford our house now, not even close, and the whole multiple houses/investing leaves such a horrid feeling. Thank you for your openness and eloquence as ever Emily x
This post perfectly summarises the madness of our current thinking around housing in this country. I hear more and more stories about the kind of profits people are making on rental properties and the truly enormous amounts of money they are allowed to borrow to buy more of them, and it makes me feel sick. Rich getting richer. This kind of greed makes me feel truly sad for our country ☹
Excellent rant!!💞
Spot on.
Many of the people have clearly failed the "put brain in gear before engaging mouth" test!!!
Spot on. I'm a salary earner and I pay tax on every single $ I earn. I also can't offset any of the expenses involved in going to work against my income tax. So why do these people think they should get untaxed earnings, and offset the interest they pay on the money they borrowed to buy the additional properties on their income tax? We all work hard. I'm pissed about all the unpaid tax in this country and sick of subsidising the people who don't contribute their fair share, who will all no doubt be better off than I am. A year ago I bought some shares in A2 Milk. So cry me a bloody river.
Brilliant response
While I agree that property investors should pay tax on profits and shouldn't be able to claim a tax rebate for interest costs I do think it's pretty harsh to paint all people who have rental properties as evil. Yes middle aged to older people have had it easier getting into homes than today's young people but are they to blame for the relative advantages times they were living in? Every period has it's challenges. Also many people who are property investors are just trying to set themselves up for retirement because the pension really isn't enough to live on, and KiwiSaver may also not be enough. Is that really such a bad motivation?
Owning a rental doesn't mean all landlords are out to shaft their tenants. Some really value their tenants and wouldn't want their tenants to live in situations they themselves wouldn't live in. I guess those landlords don't make headlines though. And yes it would be great if everyone could own their own home but you do need some rentals in the market. Also most rents are dictated by the market (which is high). If market rents come down due to these measures (I'm not sure they will) then landlords will have to lower their rents.
Hi Jacqui- I definitely don’t think people who have rental properties are evil. I don’t think anyone is evil (though tbf some investor comments this week have tested my beliefs there). I’ve had heaps of those landlords you’ve talked about contacting me saying they wholeheartedly support the changes and don’t view themselves as a business so don’t believe they should have a tax exemption. They recognise how incredibly lucky they are. I agree we need rentals and not everyone is interested in buying. But as I’ve written before rentals used to be long-term, safe, stable and reasonably priced. That is no longer the case. Therefore everyone wants to buy - so they can have a peaceful future without constant rent increases, landlords doing invasive, violating inspections all the time, being able to put their kids art on the wall or measure their height on the wall, fix problems as they come up rather than waiting months for them to be fixed. It’s different now. When housing becomes a business, people forget the people who are being housed are human beings. Rents don’t have to be dictated by the market since landlords set the rent. I don’t think these measures will address rent at all. It’s up to landlords to do that.
Yeah I have no doubt there are bad eggs out there who are only interested in making as much money as possible. I personally believe/hope that a lot of investors can strike a balance between providing a home at a fair price and also meeting their savings goals (maybe less than if they were sharks though). And yes you are right the rent is up to the landlord. I was more meaning rents tend to follow the market but of course landlords can choose to or not.
I agree with you in the sense that it’s basic human nature to take advantage of opportunities- and yes that’s been the case with people investing in properties to future proof themselves for retirement. I totally get that. The cost of living for just the basics is horrendous. But just because that’s how it’s been in the past doesn’t mean we should continue to pretend it’s not hurting so many people. So many people would prefer to buy than rent. The only reason the rental market is in high demand is because people can’t keep up with escalating deposit requirements. The goal posts move too quickly. I do believe that people should invest to help future proof for retirement or sickness or whatever unforeseen life challenges, but it’s the WHAT that is being invested in that is important. We need to encourage investment in ethical activities that improve local and global outcomes. And discourage house flipping. Property investment is just robbing Peter to pay Paul. It’s not sustainable, and it’s really expensive to have such a huge wealth discrepancy.
I definitely agree re house flipping especially if there is no "fairness" in it. Long-term landlords (like my parents) who are mainly trying to support themselves in retirement I don't have a problem with (as long as they treat tenants with respect).